While I hope you enjoyed Tentral’s musings last week, I’m back in the saddle of ‘Lock & Key’, and this week I’d like to do something a little bit different.
As we get closer and closer to launch, I want to start changing ‘Lock & Key’. This week, instead of discussing the background of a certain game type, or continuing the Tricks of the Trade series (the last of which will be released next week.), I wanted to take a step back and ask some critical questions about how the Thief Profession works. I hope some of them will lead to debate (either in the comments or on the forums), or at least make you aware of some things to keep in mind as the release date draws nearer. Then, we’ll start digging into some really interesting topics once we finally get our hands on the game…
On to the questions!
- Does Steal Deserve its place as our Profession’s Signature Ability?
Of all the discussions I’ve seen on the Thief forums, be they fan or official, the topic of Steal and its effectiveness is perhaps one of the most often raised. Steal has been designed as our F1 ability, shadow-stepping us to a foe, and stealing a random item from them which we can them use. In the arguments I’ve seen about this ability’s use, there tends to be two major trains of thought.
The first refers to the random nature of the ability. Many people feel that the fact that the item you steal is random (or at least semi-random and draw from a set of possibilities) makes this skill less useful . The second train of thought seems to revolve around disregarding the use of Steal as a…well, steal, and instead focusing on its utility as an additional Shadowstep.
I’m of two minds here, which I suppose puts me somewhere in the middle of this debate. I don’t think that the random element of this skill is an issue. I’ve seen far fewer complaints about the randomness of Steal as the Beta Weekends have come and gone. A lot of the randomness of Steal is going to be countered by play time. Once we learn what each stolen item does, we’ll soon know what it is at a glance. Some people have even started making records of all the possible items you can obtain from a Steal.
However, when a key class ability is forgotten over and over, or is used for a secondary function rather than its primary one, that strikes me as a problem. I know I’ve forgotten to use Steal many times while fighting an enemy, and when people either use Steal for the shadowstep, or look instead to trait into it into a powerful ‘attack’ (which can be done), to me this suggests an issue. Unlike the randomness issue, I’m not sure that these particular aspects of the mechanic will be completely fixed by continued play. I’ll admit that simply forgetting to use Steal can likely be solved by paying more attention, but a mechanic that must be specifically traited to be considered useful? This strikes me a particularly
My Answer: No, with some reservations. The skill deserves a re-visitation after the first month of play. I’m not exactly sure what could be done to make it as integral to our profession as the Elementalists different Attunements, or the Necromancer’s Death Shroud. Right now, it simply feels like one of many tools at our disposal, not something that should be our favorite tool.
2. What is the Thief’s role in WvW?
This question was actually sparked by an interesting discussion in the GWI Thief forums. The author of the post in question felt the WvW was prohibitive towards Thieves, forcing them to take a shortbow and pigeon-holing them into a very specific role in the WvW group. As much as I felt his concerns were unfounded, I couldn’t help but realize that Thieves were, for the most part, stuck taking the shortbow. It is our only reliable source of AoE damage, has one of the best escape moves in the game, and is just about the only thing in our arsenal that can hit anyone on the walls of a tower or a keep. Without it, we are severely hampered.
So, where does that leave us? The more I think about this issue, the more I feel that we have been cornered into having only two options; Shortbow or Non-Shortbow. If you choose to take a Shortbow, then continue on as normal. You can contribute to the fight , both in an attack, and a defense. I’d suggest using the skills that you are most comfortable with.
However, if you have a particular hatred for all stringed weapons, then I think your options are considerably fewer. You can, however, fill the all important role of support. In WvW, being in charge of supply running, war machine construction, and laying down traps and fields to provide stealth to the group, is all incredibly important. Scouting will also be an incredibly valuable part of WvW, and with our high mobility, as well as our numerous ways of applying stealth, I think it is safe to say that we will fill this role particularly well, and while the shadowstep of the shortbow might be a nice way of escaping enemy patrols, I don’t think it is a necessity.
The last part of WvW combat that I think those Thieves who forgo the shortbow will find particularly worthwhile is raiding and yak-slaying. Supply is the lifeblood of WvW. Cut that off, and your enemies will starve, and be unable to outlast any protracted siege. With our high single-target damage output, as well as the ability of throw on bleeds and vulnerability, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that a couple of Thieves could take down a Dolyak quickly in a hit and run attack.
My Answer: As is appropriate in Guild Wars 2, we can play our class in a number of ways. However, we are in fact severely impacted by the use of the shortbow…damn weapon, shootin’ arrows and going *twang*.
3. What is the Thief’s greatest weakness?
You mean besides copious amounts of wealth, a blade, and few scoundrels that need offing?
Originally, I was going to ask what our best weapons was (I’m still sticking by my twin Pistols..), bu then I got to thinking. Up to this point, I’ve discussed our strengths and most of our abilities, but I haven’t really said what we need to look out for. No, I don’t mean an Ettin’s club, and no I don’t mean Engineers, (though both are dangerous, and and have the personality of a stump…). I mean to say what is the one biggest mechanical problem with our class.
I’ve already mentioned Steal in this article, but I don’t think that that particular mechanic is our weak point. It may be less effective than some of us think it should be, but this isn’t severe enough to be called our principal weakness. Nor is our weapon selection, nor even one of our skills.
If anything, to be completely corny, our weakness is our strength. As I’ve argued in the past, I think that more than any class, the Thief is about hit-and-run tactics, moving fast, and mobility. We rely on being able to dodge, to re-position ourselves while in Stealth, and we are good at it. At the same time, we are not what you’d call tough. I believe the term ‘glass cannon’ fits us quite nicely, and in a game where the glass cannon can dodge out of the way of an attack that would shatter it, that’s not a half bad title to hold.
Until you can’t dodge. Until you can’t run. Cripple, Chill, Immbolize. These are things that we must fear. Take away our ability to move, to dodge, or to reposition, and what are we? We are Fighters with a limited weapon selection and a few tricks up our sleeves.
My Answer: Our greatest weakness is our reliance on mobility. Without mobility, we loose a huge part of what makes us Thieves, and what makes us effective fighters.
I hope that you’ve found some of the discussion here helpful and interesting. I rather like this format, so If you have a particular question about the Thief, or simply an issue you’d like to see discussed more in depth, leave something in the comments below, or head over to the Q&A topic in the Thief Forum
May the shadows hide you,
Wormwood
Excellent format to this article and another informative and entertaining read... well done!
Personally, I think the "solution" to the "problem" of the thief's profession mechanic is to simply attach stealth to it - not via a trait - just every time you steal you also gain 2 or 3 seconds of stealth.
First, this alleviates some of the concerns about using it while having primarily "range" weapons equipped. Shadowstepping into melee range is much less hazardous if it's accompanied by an automaic stealth, and permits the use of any of the "stealth attack" skills from the #1 skill. Even if you are using dual pistols, the additional opportunity to use the pistol's Sneak Attack skill from stealth would make the use of the Steal mechanic well worth remembering.
You could still use traits to have Steal also perform a "daze" or do more damage, etc. but I think attaching stealth to it takes it from "eh... nice to have if I remember it" to an invaluable, and essential tool in the thief's arsenal. This also contributes nicely to the thief's "evasiveness" which is their primary means of survival in combat.
Yessssssssss.....
Now that I have...*puts on sunglasses* Wormed my way into your head...you will continue to second guess steal for all eternity!
Huzzah!
@Tentral CURSE YOU TENTRAL!!!!!
i disagree with steal on what you say about it. I think it is a wonderful tool just people dont use it correctly, and what i mean by this is. People tend to just spam it or use it without thinking. Sure the items may be slightly random but in PvP you get to choose your target based off class and know what items they carry that you could steal, its just all situational. say i see a necro and a guardian on a piont and i need to stal them to win the game for my team. would you take your chance on the necro to gain that fear item or the guardians KB hammer, or would you just steal one of there items and save it for later when you or you rteam needs it the most dire time.With the skill being able to regen while the item is being held that just gives you more reason to keep the item when needed. i came acrossed countless times where steal saved my/teams ass just because i held onto a item or after i use one picked my target and stole another item to save myself or someone else.
@NickTucker Fair enough, and If you have been using Steal effectively, right on! However, I think a fair part of the community does struggle with it as an ability. Maybe all we need is time. That's why I want to revisit the skill once we get more than three days to play at a time.
@Wormwood true, it dose take time for anyone to get used to it unless it is those who want it "their way". It also helps to find out and look at what mobs/classes give off what items. if my knowledge serves me right there are at least 2 items per class, which should be easy to remember. Most of all it will help you in the long run and will come naturally when knowing them after just glancing at the super small picture(my opinion this is the hardest part, still learning to match effects and pictures up).
@Wormwood mmm... true i could see this happen. well then lets leave it as is and see what will happen with the community and how they respond to it xD
@NickTucker Good Points, but I think making steal that much shorter of a cooldown could make the entire thing rather overpowered...
also forgot to mention that steal is not perfect nore will ever will be, the only down side i see to it is the cool down seems too long even with max trickery. 37ish for a f1 skill while tons of other classes can basically use there f1-4 keys on the fly just seems a little out of place. i would like to see a base cool down of 30 and let trickery get it around 27. only say this because of the traits that can come along with steal, making it less viable to use them unless it match your build very well like it dose mine. But the having the item and keeping it is a good step in the right direction. preferably my ideal thought of final development of steal should be is ether the cool down reduced or keep as is but can store more then 1 item and use your f2-f4 keys to use those stored items.
Great article that does raise some good points. I only played up to about level 25 on my thief, but I often found myself just forgetting about steal until I really need to pull some more damage from somewhere and my initiative was low. It had its moments, like when you steal one of the items that allows a stealth attack, but the long cooldown and putting me in melee range when I was twin pistoling put me at a bit of a vulnerability. Perhaps they could add some of the bonuses from traits (the poison/damage) to innate Steal? Or some sort of ranged compromise? It just feels more like another utility skill, rather than something class defining. I did wish I had the range and AoE of a shortbow when I was in WvW, but it was fun with the pistols too. Dancing juuuust into range of unload was quite fun, if a little scary. I never tried it with daggers, everyone who tried to melee the other side seemed to get gibbed, but I suppose you could scorpion wire someone over to you? Also, bit off topic, but can you take the supply you're carrying and put it in the keeps deposit, or can you only put it toward building stuff? I never thought to try.
You have a point on our lack of mobility possibly crippling us, but that's true of everyone. Besides, where a frozen engineer might still have some turrets up his...wherever they keep those things, we have multiple get-outs. A friend of mine was raging in WvW whenever he came up against an enemy thief, since if the thief started losing the fight, he could easily get away.
Again, good points, looking forward to more!
@Aviate Thanks. To me steal does feel like another utility skill. It's kind of bad of me, but I have no idea of a solution. I don't really think the skill is broken, it is just not 'good' enough to garner the same amount of attention as other profession's abilities.
Unload is great. I know I'll be sticking with dual pistols at launch...
I don't believe you can deposit supply. This is one of my biggest complaints about the system at the moment, not for a game mechanic reason, but simply because IT MAKES SENSE that you should be able to put down supply..
And yeah, I suppose mobility is a weakness for everyone. However, of all the classes, I think it is pretty safe to say Thieves are the most mobile (You could argue mesmers, but that's because they are tricksy and they cheat), so taking that away has a bigger effect. Just a thought...